25.06.2008, 18:24, written by Mario Donick

Krice wrote about LambdaRogue

I just saw that Paul "Krice" Pekkarinen, developer of Kaduria, has set up a blog on a smaller new roguelike project called Teemu. In this blog, he also wrote an entry about LambdaRogue. And, I am really shocked, it is not entirely negative. But of course, the reason why he mentions the game at all is mainly criticism.User InterfaceKrice uses LambdaRogue as an example for »erratic design« in roguelike development, especially in interface design.And:I want to answer the general critiscm and, of course, explain myself a little bit.First of all, I won't neglect that LambdaRogue has not the best interface one can think of. Krice is not the only one who points that out. But I also want to make clear that the current version of the game is the most userfriendly version of LambdaRogue so far – even partly because of Krice's nitpicking.The most apparent issue of former releases was the need to confirm lots of messages by pressing Enter. I greatly reduced this, but for some messages I still force the user to confirm, because I want to prevent the user from overseeing the message. Compared to, for example, the default Angband, LambdaRogue's messages need only rarely to be confirmed now.Lately, the way how messages have to be confirmed got Krice's attention. While I think ENTER is a good way to do this, he insists of pressing SPACE instead. I admit that SPACE is often used for this purpose and it will be possible in the next update.As you might know, LambdaRogue also has an option to use the mouse. While on the map, the left mouse button is used to move and attack. The right mouse button is used to pickup items, to loot treasure chests, to drink from wells, to examine crypts and to go up- and downstairs. So the right mouse button is basically an equivalent for pressing the »use«-key, which is Enter or, as alternative, »U«.Based on this equivalence (right mouse = Enter) the right mouse button is also the alternative for all cases where Enter is used to confirm messages. So instead of pressing Enter or (in the next release) Space, the player may also press the right mouse button to click messages away. In r.g.r.d, Krice insists on using the left mouse button for this, because he has another perspective on the whole problem. His perspective isleft button = primary action (in a certain situation)right button = secondary action (in a certain situation)As messages which need to be confirmed only offer one primary action (confirm the message), he would use the left button for this. His view is totally valid and I have nothing against it.My perspective, however isleft button = Map: cursor / movement keys; Menus: selectionright button = Map and menus: use / Enter keyMy view is less abstract and perhaps less clean from a logical point of view than Krice's perspective, but it is valid and understandable, too (and even done in major commercial games).The last thing is the ESC key, which currently is not used to leave menus or longer text views. While longer texts are a type of message and will be always treatened by me that way, the people who prefer ESC for leaving menus are correct. So this will also be possible in the next release.It should be clear now that I very often listen to user wishes, so I think I'm not the one Krice calls selfish. Role Playing SystemThe second issue which Krice mentions as problematic is LambdaRogue's role playing system. He does not give details about that, but from his r.g.r.d-postings I can infer that it's the old »I play a character with absolutely no fighting skills, but I don't understand why I can't do any damage with this character, using a kitchen knife in melee combat« case.Here I only can repeat myself:1. I don't guarantee that every strange skill combination makes a good fighting character.2. There are other ways to kill monsters than by combat.3. If you think your weapon is too weak, get a better one.Positive Words …Finally, I want to quote Krice again. He writes that, besides the negativ things, LambdaRogue isHere, Krice refers to 7DRLs which are mostly shorter projects, often experimenting with new ideas, but not producing »big«, perhaps epic, games. However, I don't agree that most 7DRLs are »nothing more than simple ASCII action games«I also think that, besides LambdaRogue, there are at least two other very promising projects: Incursion and Legerdemain – both with an epic scale and lots of great ideas and possibilites.More than LambdaRogue, actually. But to conclude positive, with some words of the poet Tennyson:»Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will / To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield«.

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Comments

njerpe, 26.06.2008, 13:29
Criticism

If someone is spending the time criticizing LambdaRogue to that degree, then they've spent a lot of time with it and care enough to post about it.

While glowing praise would certainly be the best thing, I think what you have here is a close second.

Good luck with development!

Mario Donick, 26.06.2008, 13:32

Usually I would agree (and as you can see, I am very critical by myself), but Krice is a special case

Brendan, 26.06.2008, 15:02

I was happy to see a reduction in confirmations implemented. I do not use a mouse for roguelikes (except the mouse over feature ID of Zombies!)and appreciate keeping the hjkl keyset for laptops. Enter is fine for comfirmation if you are using the numpad, however, I find myself hestitating before hitting it because the spacebar is so much bigger and more inviting. Whenever I want to cancel an action I pause because I want to hit the Esc key. These are the behaviours of a long time, pre-gui, keyboard user. As long as people can config their own keybinds what does it matter what the defaults are?

Mario Donick, 26.06.2008, 16:10

Both hitting spacebar for skipping messages and hitting escape for cancelling (inventory, songbook, shops etc.) will be possible in 0.3.2. I'll release that version within the next two weeks.

Krice, 26.06.2008, 16:11

You should make quick keyboard configuration options for normal people and then for people who live in "mario world".

Mario Donick, 26.06.2008, 16:16

At least sometimes your sarcasm is enjoyable

 

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